Ep 96: Working with a VA and being more productive, Interview with Angela Bottger, VA

24 Jul 2023

Ever felt overwhelmed in your business? I think most of us have and have dreamt of finding an angel to take some of the tasks off our hands. The tasks we don’t enjoy, we’re not very good at or frankly shouldn’t be doing.

In this episode I interview experienced Virtual Assistant Angela Bottger of AB Client Solutions who does just that. In this episode she shares tips on how to go about finding a VA, the tasks they can do and how to make the partnership successful. We also talk about how to be more productive in our day.

Angela’s links

Website: https://abclientsolutions.co.uk/

LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/angela-bottger-virtual-assistant-51b69a156/

Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/abclientsolutions

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/ab_client_solutions/


Find us at https://beyondthekitchentable.co.uk

Free PDF download: https://beyondthekitchentable.co.uk/downloads/

Blog post https://beyondthekitchentable.co.uk/blog

Follow us at https://www.instagram.com/beyondthekt

Email sayhello@beyondthekitchentable.co.uk


Welcome to the website Coach podcast, and this week I am delighted to have another guest for you. This week we have Angela Boca. Angela is a va. What's a va? You might ask, well, we're gonna talk exactly about that, but she helps business owners become time rich instead of time poor, and helps improve their time management and productivity, in part by taking tasks away from them. So first of all, welcome Angela. Thank you. Thank you. It's really lovely to be here today, Marie. Thank you for inviting me on. Oh. Uh, but you're very welcome and I must admit, I'm, I'm looking forward to this because I want to know how to, uh, get some of my time back as well. So, oh, can you explain first of all exactly what your business is, what you do, and how you got started? Yes, of course. And so, first of all, what a VA is supporting other business owners with their, um, tasks. So, um, Usually it's when a business owner gets to the point where they're having to juggle absolutely everything and they're feeling like they've got no time at all. So you could be doing all the work during the day in your business and then you could be working in the evenings, catching up on admin or over the weekend and you're missing out on like family time and really important stuff and time for yourself as well. So, um, and that could be anything from my, so my clients, I've got a. I've put quite a few different types of tasks that I do for them. So a lot of them ask for newsletters that could be a weekly or monthly newsletter. Um, and I get a lot of, um, sort of word documents that want formatting, PowerPoint presentations, um, spreadsheets or a bit of design like Canva, um, and things like that. So, but not all VAs are one size fits all. You can have a VA that's. Just as social media, you can have a VA that's, um, focused on marketing. I'm a bit of an all-rounder. I do little bits of here, all different types of tasks and I do diary management and look after my business owner's email. So it really depends what you are looking for to know what sort of VA you want Really, I think that's one of the things, isn't it? That BA is very much a catchall term for people who do all sorts of different mm-hmm. The term is, is virtual assistant. So it's not just admin, but it's actually assisting you in your business, I guess. Yeah. And one of the things which I struggle with is the fact that actually most VAs tend to, they, they can't do everything. Mm-hmm. So they tend to have specializations, um, And I guess it's case of finding the right VA for you. Yep. It, it sure is. And also, you know, like my business is growing at the moment, so I've now got a team of associate VAs. That will take things that I can't do. So I'm not a social media expert. I can schedule social media posts for clients, but I don't know all the expertise in that goes in with it. So that's when I would pass it over to an expert va. So it, it's not unusual that, um, a business owner will actually use two or three VAs or the type of things that they need support with, or I guess somebody like you who can. Effectively provide those two or three different areas. Yes. Yeah. Not necessarily all by the same person. Exactly. That's right. So in that, in that case then, you know, your, the contract is with the lead va So, um, I've got a client that needs bookkeeping. I don't do bookkeeping, but the contracts with me and then the associate VA does the bookkeeping on her behalf and they have one-to-one contact. I don't need to have contact with them because I dunno anything about bookkeeping. So, um, and it works really well. But I do keep in contact with those clients and I always have catch ups to make sure everything's running smoothly. Do they need to talk to me about anything and so on. So, Communication is really key for me. Um, I just know that sometimes you get to that stage, don't you, where you are so busy and you are so overwhelmed you don't know what to do first. Yes, and or what to do next and how to manage it all. And I think, mm-hmm. I think probably one of the benefits of working with a BA long term is I know, you know, I've been in that position before and I could recruit somebody to help me, but you always worry that you've got to spend the time getting them up to speed. And when you are in that kind of situation, that's not the point at which you've got the time to spend with somebody getting them up to speed. Yeah. So when you're working with an experienced BA and you've worked with em before and they say, well, I can take this off your plate. I can take this off your plate. You know, let's go through everything and work out actually what needs to be done now. Yeah. Way. And what I can do and what you can do. And suddenly I can, I can certainly imagine that they must feel like they, they've had a weight lifted off their shoulders. Yeah, definitely. I mean, one of the first questions I get asked is, how can you help me? Mm-hmm. So, um, usually that's on the discovery call. Um, and the first thing I do is I want to know all about the person and their business. What's, um, so their barriers are what's not working well and what do they think that they need help with? Think about the things that they're not, you know, in their zone of genius, don't really like doing, but they have to do. Um, that has to be done for say, I dunno, need like your QuickBooks to be up to date for your tax return and things like that. You know, it's just, that's what I, I the discovery call's all about at first. And now to that conversation are usually everything comes out and while we are talking, that's when I say, you know, I can definitely help you with X, Y, Z that you've just mentioned. And then we come up with a plan of how we work together. Um, and then once they're happy and they sign up, then I like to have an onboarding strategy session so that we can go through the most important task that needed done, be done first. It's, it's really interesting cuz they know that they're in a, a bit of a pickle and they've got all this work on, but don't really know what they need help with. So that's why I need to have that conversation to find out about them and their business. Yeah. The, um, if we just step back, cause I imagine that probably most people employ a VA when they're at that point. But if in an ideal situation, when, when should you employ a va? Don't wait until you are at the stage of overwhelm, because that's when your mind isn't clear enough to be able to sort it out. Because when you first talk, start with a va, there is like the onboarding process. There's probably about a period of a week where the VA will need to get used to your systems. If you've got systems that they need to be, you know, logged into um, how you work together, that sort of thing. So there is a bit of, to and fro that first probably I'd say the first week to get set up. Um, that's probably a bit of a scary thought. So for some, because they're at the stage where they need help now and it is helping, but we've got to get set up properly cuz then after that, You really don't need to do anything until I ask first something from you. Mm-hmm. So, um, it's just been mindful if you're already in overwhelm and feeling a bit burnt out, um, that f that onboarding process might be a bit too much. Yeah, no, I can certainly see that. And once somebody has decided that they need a, a va, what's, what's the right way would you say? To go about actually finding a VA and also deciding what the right tasks are to outsource to a va. Yeah. So first of all, say do your homework. Go out and look at, um, VAs on LinkedIn, or there's some Facebook groups that you can find VAs on there. Um, look at their testimonials, recommendations. Um, what people are saying about them. Look at their website, make sure that they've got insurance and their ICO registered, all the legal stuff in place. Um, find out about their background, where they've got their experience from because, um, there are VAs out there that have set up as a VA but not necessarily have had the years of experience like some of us do. So, um, for example, I had a discovery call with one person and they were questioning how much I was charging versus someone else that was charging probably half what I was charging. And I said, have you done your background work on them? Do you know their experience? Do you know if they've got the full insurance and their I ICO registered and everything else in place? Um, I would highly recommend you go away and do your research on that person. Um, what I would say is, you are paying for my expertise and my experience, and that's what you will get and over and above that. So it's just been very careful who you are, you are looking out for, to find the right video and have, you know, in speak to two or three, don't just have one discovery call and just think, right, I'll go with you. Um, it's, it's very common to speak to two or three to see, you know, you've got to have the rapport with that person and, you know, make sure that you feel comfortable. Yeah, and I guess it, you know, in terms of experience, I know certainly I've dealt with a number of VAs, um, a client, VAs, and it's really interesting because quite a lot of them claim that they can build websites, for example, which I'm sure they can. Yeah. But they will quite often. Not understand exactly how a website works. Mm-hmm. Because they will say they can do websites, they can do, uh, all the email marketing systems. They can do all the project set up, all the project management tools. They can set up things like zao, they can do diary management, email management, uh, do your content marketing for you and all of your social platforms. That's an awful lot for one person to be experienced in. Mm-hmm. And what I often find is actually they do know some of those really, really well. And they're very good at some of them, but they're not good at every single thing. So yeah, I think for me, one of the things is for people to think about what help ideally they want. So it's a case of where's my zone of genius, which I know is their term that is often bandied around by business coaches. But there are certain things in our business we don't enjoy doing. Yes. And there are certain things in our business, which we're not very good at, and. They're the first two things in my mind that you should get rid of. Absolutely. I think get rid of that's outsource, I guess is the technical framework. Yeah, that's right. And websites are the same. A lot of people don't enjoy doing their website or, or find it at chore. Um, so, you know, outsource the things that you're not very good at and that you don't enjoy doing, first of all. Yes, definitely. And then I think what's harder, certainly what I have found harder is there are certain things which I actually quite enjoy doing. But I know that's not the best use of my time. Mm-hmm. So I'm a bit strange in that I quite enjoy doing my accounts, but I've recently brought on board an accountant, so I've got a finance background. It doesn't phase me. My accounts do not phase me at all. Right. But I've recently brought on board an accountant because the time I spend doing that could be time better spent doing marketing, for example. Um, yeah. So, but I think, yeah, it's a case of finding people who can. Who can specialize in the things that you don't enjoy or, um, you know, are just not worth your time. Definitely. And that's different for everybody. So, yeah, for some people they might spend a lot of time in email marketing systems and really prefer not to think about, you know, your revenue generating tasks. What, what should you be doing rather than doing your little bit of admin tasks that's taken. You know, couple of hours out of your way when you could have been concentrating on building your revenue somewhere else, you know? Yeah. So that's, um, something to definitely think about. But yeah, definitely just remember the things that your zone of genius is in and outsource what isn't, even if you do enjoy them, but someone else can take that away from you so you can focus on your business. Yes. One of my clients said to me that, She thought that just because she could do her website meant she should do her website. Oh. And, and she then asked me to do it. So, and she was so pleased. She did. Yeah. But it's re I thought that was a really interesting phrase and it applies to so much about business just because you can do something. I mean, I could cut my own hair, but I don't, you know, it was bad enough during lockdown when I was doing, uh, my husband and my sons, I couldn't wait for them to get back to the barbers because yes, I could do that. But it took me three times as long and it wasn't, yeah, it didn't, it wasn't as good. And so I think as, as business owners, we feel just because we can do things that we always should do. And, and I don't think that's true at all. Well, that's why I reached out to you, Marie, from my website because, I mean, I absolutely love what you've done for me. Um, but I, I mean, I could go into my old website and I could update it, but I don't know all the nitty gritty SEO and all that sort of thing. Um, and I just needed someone else to. Really redesign it for me in the way that I wanted. And oh, you are just brilliant. Thank you so much. Oh, thank you. Well, I must come onto your website in a minute, but before we do that, can we just talk a little bit more about, about va? Because I think one of the things, which is probably the most difficult thing, a lot of people are not used to outsourcing work to other people. Mm-hmm. And certainly on a more continuous basis, rather than on, a one-off. And what are the things people should know in order to actually have a good relationship with the va? How can somebody who is the client ensure that the relationship with their VA is a good one going in the long term? Mm-hmm. I would say, um, when you are, when the VA's asking for the task, be very concise in what you want them to do, make it very clear. Otherwise there's gonna be a lot of backwards and. Forwards, which is wasting both of your time trying to say the VA knows exactly what they're meant to be doing. Um, and just build on that relationship. I mean, that's something that the VA should be doing anyway as a client. Um, yeah, it's just basically having really good communication. That's what makes it work really well and. Try and get those tasks over on time. You know, that's what you've hired them for, that's what you're paying for. So even though it's a little bit of time that you will have to spend sending them over, it's a lot of less time that you would've done it or yourself before. So it is all about communication. Um, yes. And. That's basically it really. Communication and making sure that you give really good instructions. Yeah. Yeah. I think that's, I think that's very good advice. Um, can we talk a little bit about, you mentioned that you also help people with their time management and productivity. Mm-hmm. So certainly a lot of my clients and a lot of people listening to this podcast, I guess as well. They struggle with time management. Yeah. They struggle with overwhelm. Mm-hmm. And it's actually been something we've talked about on a couple of interviews so far on the podcast as well. Okay. Thinking particularly, um, a few podcasts episodes ago we had Emma Jeffries on and, and we talked about it with her, but I'd be really interested to get your take on basically how we can be more productive and focus on the right things and, and manage our time better as small business owners. Sure, sure. Yeah, definitely. So first thing I will ask someone is if you do use some sort of electronic diary or, uh, a paper diary. So it's whatever works well for you. So for example, I use Outlook, um, and I put all my schedule into Outlook. You can do that with a paper diary as well. So I put in there, and the first things I say to people is, put the time for you first. And they say, well, what do you mean? So like, What breaks would you like? Do you want a lunch break? Do you want to go out for a run in the afternoon? Um, do you need to have some sort of family time? Or if you've got children, do you need to go and pick them up from school? Put those in the die first. They are really your non-negotiables because they are breaking up your day as well, which will stop the overwhelm because you're otherwise. A lot of people just sit all day long just plugging away and not really having many breaks. They might just go and grab a coffee, have 10 minutes to eat, um, have a quick week and get back to work again. Um, but not proper breaks and no time for themselves. And I, and that's fine to start with, but over time, You start to get tired and then when the overwhelm sets in and then eventually you could burn out. So it's really sort of sorting out your schedule. Is that something you do, Marie? Must be fair. I do put my dog walks in and I do put my school running and I do put in lunch, although I must admit, I forgot yesterday. I realized I had a meeting at one 30 and I. Settle time up to then, and I, I just continued afterwards and I suddenly thought, well done a minute. I didn't put any time for lunch in there. Yeah. Um, you know, and when productivity, um, it's being mindful that you need to give your brain a break as well. So we're sitting at your desk for hours on end is not good for your brain. I think they say no more than 45 minutes at a time because your brain starts to then lose a bit of focus. And I use something called the Pomodoro Effect. I don't know if you've ever used that. Yeah, I've heard of it. Yeah. Yeah. So I do 25 minutes focus work, turn all my notifications off. Cuz if you get that ping, you are gonna look at it, aren't you? Mm-hmm. So, and then if it's a social media ping, you're like, Ooh. And then you click on it and you read it and before you know you're 20 minutes down a rabbit hole. So it's never been there. No. Never been there. No, never. So turn all your notifications off so you have that real focus time. I've got a focus timer on my desktop and it rings a bell when it's finished. And then when that bell rings, I then just stop for five minutes, just have a brain break, whether I just go and get a coffee or have a quick walk around the house, um, and then come back, do and do that four times. So 25 minutes. Focus five minute break and then after the four times have a longer break. So, and you'll be surprised actually how well your productivity starts to really work well because you're giving your brain a break in between cuz you're coming back refreshed. Mm. Even though it's five minutes. Yeah, yeah. No, I've heard, I've heard it talked about, um, before. It's, it's a very good system and yeah. Yeah. Yeah, definitely. Very good system. Um, can we talk a little bit now about how you run your own business as a business, and particularly how you get clients, which is the thing which most business owners probably struggle with the most is getting clients. Yes. Yeah. Um, so when I first started, so I started my business two years ago. Um, and at first I did a lot of networking cuz as a new business owner, you've got to, people need to see you. You're just sitting behind your desk, they're not gonna know you or what you do. So, um, I got myself out on social media and I started networking. Um, and then when I started, had a steady stream of clients coming through. I didn't need, I felt like I didn't need to network as much because they, even now they recommend me to others. So I get a lot of recommendations. Um, however, I am a part of a, um, Athena, which is a ladies networking group. So, um, I highly recommend networking. Um, if you get the right group, it's, it's fun rather than a chore. Um, so that's, that's really what I do. It's mainly word of mouth from my clients and, um, a bit of networking. Yeah, definitely. I think networking, and again, I've talked about this on the podcast a number of times. It does have a bad wrap, but I find it one of the most effective tools for building a business that's also really good for it. It could be lonely working on your own. Absolutely find other people who can keep support network and who understand what it's like and who can sympathize when you know, zoom goes down or. Tech doesn't work or you know, the client, you know, has done something or whatever it might be. Exactly. And, and yeah. That's your, that's your support network as well as potential source of clients. Exactly. And don't go in, um, always my mindset is don't go in like selling. You're not selling, you're there to build relationships for people to get to know what you do. And if something comes out of it. That, you know, that's a bonus. That's the mindset I have because if you go in, oh, I need to sell and I need clients, that's the, it just makes you frustrated because it doesn't happen straight away like that. You've got to build those relationships with people. Definitely. And I think people do look for the short term game in any form of marketing, and especially with networking. And I've certainly heard that from a couple of clients of mine. Oh, I tried networking. I tried that group. You know, I went once or I went twice, but I never got any clients from it. And it's like, you've gotta go first three years maybe. Maybe not quite that long. Take time. But I've certainly had clients who I've, I've. You know, they've come to me three years after I first met them at a networking event. Oh. And it can sometimes take that long before they have a need for what it is that you offer. Exactly. And they remember you because they bet you maybe more than once, and they might well have followed you on socials and they've built up that relationship and you want to become the obvious choice for when they need something. Absolutely. Absolutely. That's right. Yeah, definitely. It's. Just build those relationships. That's what I can say. Be relaxed, be yourself, be authentic, um, and just talk about your business just like we are now. Really, you know, just tell people about what you do. Um, and as you say, they do remember you. Um, I've had a couple of people say, oh, I'm so-and-so from so-and-so group as recommended. You say, oh, that's really nice. So even if they're not using you yourself, they can also recommend to other people. Yeah, definitely, definitely. Yeah. You want to, uh, you want to be remembered below the very first networking event that I went to with a particular group that I still go to, and this must be about four, four years ago, maybe five years ago now. Yeah. As I came in late, I was flustered. I had my coat. I moved my coat and I knocked over somebody's glass of wine, which shattered on the table. It's like, okay, that's how you make a memorable entrance. Well, at least you'll be remembered for that. Marie. I dunno that there's anybody still in the group that was there that night or the Oh, okay. Very. But um, and in a similar way, so you mentioned that you employ other VAs yourself. How did you find those VAs? So, um, again, I went on the, the Facebook great groups that I joined when I became a va. There's specific ones out there. If you are a va, you can, it is they the like help groups really, and they also, you can go on there to say that I've, I've got, um, so-and-so job coming up. Does anyone want to do some associate work? And you just learn. From there, VA can then contact you. Um, and then I just spoke to half a dozen and then started working with a few. So, but again, it's like, I felt like I was the client cause I needed to know about their background and everything. So I was probably asking the same, those sort of questions that the client would ask, um, just to make sure that, and make sure they've got all their legal stuff in place as well, because at the end of the day, they're working with you, you've built up the reputation and they're helping you do the work. So it's, you know, really important. You get the right VAs with the experience. Uh, definitely because it is your reputation at the end of the day. That's, that's on the line. Mm-hmm. Um, have you had any experiences with VAs that haven't worked out? Um, no. Cause it actually hasn't been going very long. I've only had my, I'll start them probably back in February. But touch word at the moment, it's all going really well. Long, may it continue? Yeah. Yeah, definitely. Um, can we move on to talk about your website? I know we touched on it a little bit earlier, but obviously I built your website last year. For you, can you explain a little bit about why you decided you needed a new one and why you decided to, to outsource it? Well, Marie, I've been stalking you a lot on Instagram cause. Well, that's what you do though, isn't it? I think I've, yeah, I mean, I'm just watching you cause I knew a couple of people that already you'd done websites for and I kept seeing your stories and they kept saying how, you know, I mean, I looked at their websites and thought, oh this is so fresh, this is lovely. This is just what I want. Cuz my old website, it was great at the time, I had it done, but it was very corporate, very old and dark. Um, and I knew that just by looking at theirs, it's the sort of website I wanted. So I just kept watching you, watching your posts, watching your stories, and when I got to the point that I knew that I wanted it done, I think it was about this time last year actually. Yeah, I would be, um, yeah, that's, that's just why I reached out to you cuz I, I followed you and I saw the other websites that my other people that I knew that you'd done and I was just really pleased with. You know liked what I saw. Um, and then I was over the moon with what you did for me. Cuz it's really funny when you, you hand your website over to someone else and you're not sure what to expect. Cause like you asked me for certain criteria, didn't you? And pictures and colors and fonts and everything. And you always think, oh, well, you know, we'll just see how it goes. And then when it comes back and you're like, oh. Oh my gosh, that's exactly what I wanted. It's just such a bonus, isn't it? Um, I didn't doubt you'll doubt you at all anyway, but you always think, oh, I hope it's gonna be all right. And it absolutely was 100%. Well, I'll let you into a secret, which is when I send those over to somebody, a little bit of me going is going, I hope they like them. I hope that is what they want, because for sure it's very, very personal. So when it comes to building a website, obviously a lot of it is about customer journey and understanding your, your client. But at the end of the day, I also want my clients to absolutely love their website because if they don't, they're not gonna promote them. And promoting your website is the best way to get clients through your website. So, and, and because it is so personal and, you know, you send over the designs and you think, I do hope they like them, you know? Yeah. And you've got confidence because of the questions I ask and things like that. So you hope that you are, you are there and, and it's rare that I'm not, but, um, yeah. Yeah. Well, it's like with some of the tasks I do for my clients, and I know that they're gonna, they're gonna be some tweaks and changes. I mean, that's gonna be inevitable, isn't it? Mm. But, um, Ultimately, yeah, I'm sure you think, oh, I hope that they really like it, but I did, I reassure you I did, and I don't think I changed very much at all on it. It might, I think we had a couple of tweaks. Yeah. I can't remember now, but I, you, you certainly, you certainly weren't a client that gave me lots of tweaks. I certainly remember that. And can you talk a bit about the impact it's had on your business? Obviously if you are employing new VAs to help you, I presume your business has, has boomed since you got your website. Yeah, definitely. I mean, I've, I've had more people looking at my website now and I'm sharing my link all the time, making sure I'm directing people to the website. I've had, um, really good feedback about how fresh and looking it is easy to read. Um, yeah, I've had quite a few more people coming from my, looking at my website first and then coming to me than I did before. Probably a bit of that wasn't me directing people to it as as much as I do now. But, um, I do get a lot of feedback from it. So if anyone ever reaches out to me and says, who did your website, don't worry. I'm gonna be passing them your way. Oh, thank you for that. Um, I've got some quick fire questions for you, but before we get onto those, can you tell me, uh, or, or tell the listeners where they can find you, your website and your social media handles? Of course. So, um, I'm AB Client Solutions. You'll find me on LinkedIn, Instagram and Facebook. Um, what else did you ask me? Website as well. Website. And my website. Yeah. AB Client Solutions. Um, so it's ab client solutions.co.uk. Brilliant. I will put those links in the show notes. In any event, thank you. Thank you very much. Okay, so final questions are first of all, a favorite podcast of yours that you can share with everybody. Do you know what? I haven't actually listened to podcasts for ages, but my absolute favorite that I probably listened to about a year ago was Fern Cottons Happy Place. Have you ever read, listened to that? I have. Yes. And she, I think she's one that has been recommended on here before. She is. Oh, she's definitely the demographic of people that, uh, that tend to be my clients. Yes. Yeah. And I definitely enjoyed that one. So if you wanna really sort of like, feel good podcast to listen to, that's really one I recommend. Fantastic. Listen to any business ones, uh, don't worry. Uh, favorite business book. My favorite business book is a book I read about a year ago and it's written by Be Solanki and it's called, um, change Your Game. And it's all about, um, how to achieve your full potential as an entrepreneur and create the life that you desire. He's really helped me with my mindset of my business cuz when, um, I first started, my mindset was I need clients, I need to do this, I need to do that, and I'm. I've got in this place of, oh, nothing's happening. And then when I sort of, I actually spoke with him about it and he said, be consistent. So I thought, okay, trust the process and detach from the outcome. So I thought, okay, I'm being consistent. Cause I was networking and I was putting myself out on social media. So I needed just to trust the process would work and then the outcome would happen. And with having that different mindset, That's when things started happening and clients started coming and it's so weird, but it's true. Ah, that's really good to hear actually. Mm-hmm. Um, and that, well that might be the answer to the next question, but I was gonna say that's really good advice as well. So the final question is a piece of business advice that you can give people business advice. Um, I would say just. Uh, if you are starting a new business, be kind to yourself because it can be an emotional rollercoaster when you first start. Um, You know, you can, you are, you first start, you're excited, then you are a little bit, ooh, gosh, I don't know. Should I have done this? Shouldn't I have done that? Um, and you have all these different emotions coming, but be kind yourself because it is a natural process. I've heard so many people say exactly the same thing, so it is something you're gonna go through. Um, and yeah, just when things get tough, be kind to yourself because. And relax and detach on the outcome and things will happen. That is very, that is very good advice. I certainly do remember those well, the rollercoaster continues of emotions. Um, yeah, the, the highs are, are fantastic, but you do get the lows when you certainly, definitely doubt what you are doing. So that's, I'll just say stop. If you get to the point where you feel overwhelmed, just stop and, and take a break and reset yourself. Brilliant. Well thank you so much for your time, Angela. I hope everybody has found that really useful. Thank you. Thank boy. That's alright. It's been a pleasure. Thank you.